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Q : Marc Dornford-May, you have directed this wonderful U-Carmen Ekayelitsha (Carmen in Kayelitsha). What was your approach with directing this perticular Carmen with people who had never been before in front of the camera?

I think it’s important to mention that we had been, the ensemble had been, working together for 4 years before we made the film. We had been through rehearsals and we had staged a production of Carmen, throughout the world. We staged a production in South Africa, and then we went to London and then to America, to Toronto in Canada, in Perth in Australia, so we had a great sense, I suppose, of the characters and how they interacted together in a stage setting. What was, I suppose, the new challenge, was to move this into cinema.

The challenges of that were immense. It was my first film ever as a director. None of the cast had ever been in front of the camera before, so we had a long and steep learning curve. But it was a fascinating process.

Q. : What gave you the idea in the first place to put together a South African Carmen ?

We are a South African company, so everything we see is seen through a South African prism. It did not seem strange to me to move what Prosper Mérimée had set in the poor area of Séville in the 19th century to a South African townships today, because the economic requirements, the economic pressures on people were the same. People have less choice if they are poor about what other people may think of as morality. So it made it an easy leap. Also, South Africa is still a very male dominated society. I think it is important in any production of Carmen that basically she is a very strong woman and men try to impose their own views on her and basically she refuses that.

Q. : In terms of this South African set, how do you understand Carmen, what do you think Carmen must be ?

I think she’s got to be vital, she’s got to be alive. In a funny way, she’s got to represent a lot of women who are in the same position, were men decide on an image for them, if you like. And don’t let these women move out of this image. I think the Don José character feels that he has a chance to save her as if she was a fallen woman, he does not see her as she is. Whereas the matador character sees her as a lost mother figure, someone he could protect. None of those are real images of Carmen at all, she is a very different person to that.

Q. : Who is Carmen, what is she ?

Ah! That’s an impossible question ! She is a great female icon and has been ever since the book came out. I think for different generations she means different things and in different social contexts she means diffrent things. Certainly in terms of a south African context, she is someone who would be very visible, very noticeable in terms of the role of women in society. I think she is also someone who men feel they want, I was going to say protect but this is not right, that there is something in her of the victim and something of the perpetuator, something like Marylin Monroe, which is why, I think, this character endured for so long.

Q. : You have a great love for Carmen. What is Carmen to you ?

I think it starts with the love of the music. I think that Bizet wrote the most dramatic and emotional response to a fantastic story. The working of the narrative has appealled to me both on the stage and in film. I did not think «Here we go again» when we started the film, I thought that we were dealing with the same character but in a completely different environment and that was fantastically refreshing. And we took certain thing we learned inthe film back in the show. To me she (Carmen) is everything that is fascinating, everything that is infuriating and everything that is desirable about women. She has all those qualities.

Q. : Pauline creates a very jubilant, extraordinarily sensuous Carmen, there is something raw about her, something extremely sexual, she is authentically sexy, in a very different way that for example Julia Migenes-Johnson’s approach of this same character in a film. Can you tell me what you wanted out of her ?

It is one of those pieces when you have to base a lot about what the person playing the role is or what they can portrait. Not that Pauline is Carmen by any means but there are aspect of her personality which are as you described and those could be brought into the film, like if you were doing Hamlet or if you were doing Tosca. It can’t just be a directorial vision. It can’t be. I did not have the concept of what Carmen had to be before we started. Carmen grew out of what Pauline brought into the rehearsal set so it was a very organic process. She not only have an extraordinary voice, she can also do with the range, which is massive. But also, as you described, she moves like a goddess, she has a fantastic ease in her movements which is quite predatory in itself, so those are the aspect that came out of Pauline and I working on the role, it was not sort of a concept that I put on it.

Q. : We see her smile when the men come at her, this joyful, dominant smile, which is quite new to me, I’ve never seen a Carmen portrayed like that. We see her savouring her power. Was this something that Pauline brought by herself ? And also, this Carmen that is portrayed here is so authentically african, can you please comment about this ?

A. : Without a doubt it is authentically african. Pauline was bred and brought up in Khayelitsha. She had never been abroad until she went abroad to sing Carmen, so in that sense she is very, very part of her culture and is very proud of her culture, and that is quite important, I think. As we worked on the piece, we were very careful to ensure that that pride was there. Her relationships with men in the piece is, I think, the relationship that Bizet created and I think that Pauline reflects that very well. Again, this is a different generation and I think a different generation brings a different take on the story and this is what is great about great art. It doesn’t remain constant, is constantly changes, if you like, or society changes. Maybe it does not change but society’s view of it changes. Pauline, because she is a 21st century woman reflects on Carmen in a way that a women 50 years ago would not do.

Q. : What was important for you to bring into this film as far as South Africa is concerned ? You brought a lot of spirituality, a lot of dancing, a lot of joy. Joy is present throughout the film, a fantastic, unbriddled joy. How did you approach it ? Did you take Carmen and brought to South Africa of did you bring South Africa into Carmen ?

I think, we sort brought South Africa into Carmen. But Carmen does have all of those aspects that you described. We moved the game of cards into Carmen’s visit to a Sangoma (a sorcerer), but it has the same effect, it says something about Carmen’s uncertainty when she is in a private moment. She is prepared to hang on to something that, in a more rational moment, she might dismiss. The color and the dance obviously comes of Mérimée’s view of Spain which is very much a Frenchmen’s view of Spain at that time, a place with a sort of exoticism, with a different sort of pulse. In a funny way, I think South Africa may imbody that for people today. In a traditionnally staged version of Carmen, there is a separation between the music and the dancing sections, often because the person playing Carmen can’t dance. We did not have to confront any of those problems, it was much easier for me to make this as a whole because if it was necessary for Carmen to dance, she could dance. If it was necessary for her to act, it was there, there’s not only someone who can sing the notes, it is beyond that.

Q. : When you have never directed a film before, how do you direct people who have never been in front of the camera before ?

First of all you can’t be pompous about it and you can’t pretend you have knowledge you don’t have ! It’s to deal with communication. Theater is one way of communication and obviously truthfullness and gestures in a theatrical environment are very different from truthfullness and gesture in a cinematographic environment, but ultimately you have to put yourself as a member of the audience and say if I was a member of the audience watching that, would I believe it ? By that I don’t mean that things have to be naturalistic or realistic, but within this world does this sort of answer seem acceptable ? And if the answer is yes you’re quite a long way. I was very lucky we had a fantastic director of photography, Giullio Biccari, who really educated me in the processes and helped shape that vision. I knew what I wanted it to look but how we were going to get there in the beginning, I had no idea. After I had more ideas but in the beginning I was helped along.

Q. : Maybe I should have asked this before, but how on Earth did you get this idea, not only to put together this Carmen in a film, but to think you could make it ?

I suppose because the stage production was hugely successful, and that gave us confidence. I felt there was something about Pauline’s performance that was incredibly perticular and ought to be preserved. Probably she will be included as one of the greatest interpreters of the world ever. But initially we were looking at another production to turn into a film and suddenly I realised that the obvious was staring at us in the face. We had fantastic backing and support that made it possible. Without it would have been impossible because the standard of the film had to be a certain level. It’s not like you could make it for next to nothing. And that, the fact that we got this support, sort of completed the circle.

Q . : I’ve practiced for hours trying to get the proper pronunciation of Xhosa (N.B. You must click your tongue on the X and let the word flow). What brought you to use this perticular South African language, or any South African language for that matter ?

I suppose because I live in South Africa all the time I’m exposed to languages. For me it is as normal as French, German or English. The very nature of the language is fascinating with these incredible clicks but it has incredibly long vowel sounds as well. Out of that, out of all the major European languages, it is closer to Italian, which makes it very easy to sing. Our original production was sung in English and English is not a perticularly great language to sing. Once we had decided to set the story into the Townships, to me, we were demanding that the audience suspend disbelief enough already by accepting that the people were going to sing instead of speak, and the orchestra, and all that. Also that the South Africans were going to speak English was to me one step too far. Also, Xhosa is the second most spoken language after Zulu. Also, most of our cast is from the Eastern Cape, where Xhosa is mainly spoken. It’s a lovely muscical language.

Q. : And the translation was made by the two main singers ?

Yes, we worked very closely. I structured the scenario and we looked at it, looked at it, looked at it, but the actual detail of the translation and some of the background were done by Pauline and Andiswa.

Q. : In Al Pacino’s Looking for Richard, one actor says that one has to find the right emotion of the line and then the iambic pentameter falls into place. I feel this is what you have done with this Carmen, to find the right emotion for a South African Carmen…

That is a very clear point. Like iambic pentameter, opera has a perticular shape and a perticular rythm and if you find the right lock, suddenly what appears stylised and artificial becomes emotional and natural. And at time I think we have arrived this way.

Q. : What about the sacrifice of the bull ? Why put that in the film ?

Well, one of the most interesting links between Spanish culture and South African culture, perticularly the Xhosa and Zulu cultures is that they are based on cattle, and perticularly the bull. The bull has the same kind relationship to masculinity within both cultures. The bull represents strength, virility and power. Unlike Spain, in South Africa bulls are not fought but there is a ritualistic killing of the bull which happens at key points in people’s lives. It could be because there is uncertainty regarding someone’s ancesters. So the bull is slaughtered to let the ancesters’s know that this person still wants to be part of the family. It could be to celebrate someone’s homecoming or someone’s leaving, to celebrate death or mariage. It seemed to me that, because of that link it was too obvious a chance to miss at a crucial point in the opera where the blood is spilled, an animal is sacrificed if you like, which is there in the Bizet version, so making that work into our South African version semmed to make a lot of sense.

Q. : What is your new project , now? What do you dream of putting into a film ?

We're already working in our second film right now, which is based on the New Testament. I say based because none is using biblical names, it is set in present day South Africa. It has to do with the politics of the New Testament. It has spirituality, I hope it has, but it has not so much to do with someone’s divinity has with someone who is promoting peace and equality in an occupied land. After that my desire is to take a break, if you want the truth, because 12 months ago we hadn’t started Carmen, we are already working on our second film and between that we opened 4 shows in New York. So it has been quite an intense 12 months, so come June I will be looking forward to spend time with my family.

Propos recueillis par Anne Christine Loranger


Anne Christine Loranger Correspondante d'INTERCINETH en Allemagne		Mark Dornford-May Réalisateur